[Oriya-group] My Point of View on Font issue

Mon Dec 27 18:17:40 IST 2004

"Manik" <manikchand at lycos.co.uk>  wrote :

> As per Oriya Grammar, there is nothing like a ‘wa phala’ 

Dear Manik Babu, 

Many thanks for our points, these are very useful, even if posted little late.

In clarifing your views pease read the further discussion made on this issue at :

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Orissa-IT/message/245
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Orissa-IT/message/247
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Orissa-IT/message/248
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Orissa-IT/message/251

and see practical examples in :

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Orissa-IT/files/Oriya_BA_vs_Wa_reference.pdf

>  ...as there is also no jya phala..... ya phala 

This issue has been closed, everyone accepted it as 'ya' (0B5F)'s phallaa. It is already used in Indic computing since 1988.

> ... new composite glyph 0B13&vophala for maintaining unison with Hindi > and other indic scripts.

Acually 'Wa'='Va' i.e. an alternative form of 'Wa' is 'Va' (represented with a dot inside 'Ba'), But Unicode defined it wrongly.

> Was it not the issue like writing kampa (shiver – En_GB) as kongpa (ka > anuswar pa) during early computerization 

This form of writing the Varga's Pancham Akshar by replacing with anuswar on previous character is started with advent of machanical TYPEWRITERs, which has to super-imposed over the limited English characters (Decades before of early computersation). It is phonetically wrong. However separete reports are being prepared on this issue, which will be posted to you also.

> Unicode is incomplete, at many places illogical and outrageously 
> incorrect. 

Some errors/ommisions- Unicode people realised/accepted and proper action has been or being taken for putting -- corrective notes.

> So here you see a practical need for the joiner as the issue raised by > Mr. Pansari. 

Therefore, ZWJ and ZWNJ already been included in the font.

> something innovative fast! 

As technology is moving very fast, in recent 3-4 years use of Internet, Mobile Phones, SMS, (Hindi SMS also came in practical use...) spreading fast at POWER RATE (i.e. 2**2=4**2=16**2=256...), As now the STT (Speech to TEXT) facility also being developed for speedy/easy entry/transmission of text Messeges on mobile phones, which could better done in Indian languages than English,

it is the need of time that --
people will accept automatically the 'wa' character, because as per the Phonics-rules of greatest Liguist PANINI and SIDHANTA KOUMUDI no words could be pronunciated with conjunct... 
kba, sba, tba,....etc.
----

It is very difficult (almost impossible) to change the text books/ dictionaries. A change in a language automatically comes/spreads with need of time, no action is needed by any organisation or Government. However it takes a generation's time i.e. 20 to 30 years.

But, as the time is changing fast, I visualise it more early.
However, we should plan with dream of Our HE Presdent of India Mr. APJ Abul Kalam, DEVELOPED INDIA by 2020 A.D. and should make such long term plan.

As First time the ORIYA OT font is being develped, we must be attentive towards correting the earlier mistakes, however we must keep a balance between traditional use and logical/scientific/correct use.

With regards.

Hariram Pansari
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0056_01C4EAE0.B01E34C0"

------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C4EAE0.B01E34C0
Content-Type: text/plain;
	charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

Dear friends,

I saw some discussion on the font issue lately and thought I should have
commented earlier on what I think about the matter.

>---------- Hariram Pansari wrote:

>No any international linguist had avoided this fact.

>With a general commonsence everyone realise that :

>

>swa = 0B38+0B4D+0B71, it never should be 0B38+0B4D+0B2C,i.e.=sba.

>as in swaadhin, pakwa, svatva - should never be sbaadhin, pakba, sbatba.

>

>mba = 0B2E+0B4D+0B2C, it never should be 0B2E+0B4D+0B71,i.e.=mwa.

>as in Aamba, lambaa, - should never be Aamwa, lamwaa.

My Point-of-view -

As per Oriya Grammar, there is nothing like a 'wa phala' as there is also no
jya phala. (It is no way linked with 0B1C) The jya phala issue is quite old.
Much older grammar focuses on jya phala whereas ya phala has replaced jya
phala virtually in every BarnaBodh and grammar book taught to children in
schools. Talking about wa it is a letter even it was not there when we
studied our first BarnaBodh. In recent times it is being used with a new
composite glyph 0B13&vophala for maintaining unison with Hindi and other
indic scripts.

For core usability issue -

1.	If somebody not acquainted with oriya wants to read the text he will
face pronunciation problems.
2.	If tomorrow a software app tries to translate oriya text to hindi or
other indic scripts then it will face problems which will need hard-coding
algorithms to differentiate ba phala and wa phala as well as za phala and ya
phala. Though there would be no issues for translating to Oriya.
3.	If people have used the wa phala and composed text so compatibility
maintenance may be necessary; however it is a non issue as Unicode adoption
is in its nascent stages.

Expected troubles -

1.	By inducing jya and wa phala we would have to re-write Oriya grammar
which would not be appreciated by many. Are we here to correct Oriya which
is written and spoken by millions for the sake of ease of computerization?
Was it not the issue like writing kampa (shiver - En_GB) as kongpa (ka
anuswar pa) during early computerization and people tried to justify the
phonetic anomalies for the sake of computerization?
2.	Most Oriya people will need to be educated about an esoteric 'wa
phala' or 'jya phala' which have never been there in any dictionary or
"BarnaBodh".
3.	We should always keep in mind that there is no proper Oriya language
implementation floating around to base our efforts on. Don't bend too much
on Unicode as Unicode is incomplete, at many places illogical and
outrageously incorrect. It is not the final word on Oriya glyphs and is
subject to heavy changes as and when efforts from governmental agencies like
CDAC pour in.
4.	For example 'ka halant ba' what will it yield? 'kwa'. It will never
yield 'kba' and so these two hypothetical conjuncts are pure mutually
exclusive.
5.	So if 'kba' is somewhere needed it should be written as 'ka
halant|nonjoiner|ba' which is analogous to what we currently have in common
practice. So here you see a practical need for the joiner as the issue
raised by Mr. Pansari.

>---------- Hariram Pansari wrote:

>But Unicode OT has vast scope... other OR-OT drafts appears to include...

>If we wait for their release, we have to follow them. If we have to include
it, then the entire DATA has to be re->edited with extra manpower usage.

6.	It does not happen like that. Incompleteness of standards will keep
them from mass adoption for some time from now. If the system that we use
remains valid (it will of course!) despite of the changes any extra trivial
substitution issues can be left to script based substitutions. I still get
quirks with ko with ssho giving rise to xa but however things like these
should be better digested earlier.

Sorry for commenting late but I feel that if issues arise let Oriya Grammar
books speak. However as Mr. Pansari commented:

>With a general commonsence everyone realise that :

Commonsense should be applied but it is difficult that everyone realizes a
single point.

Font issues are important but many turnarounds are there as we can pretty
well write 0B13&vophala for wa and it will show up properly even after any
amount of re-thinking on U0B71 which I don't think may happen anyway.

As for the translation work, it is not getting anywhere. We should try
something innovative fast! How about some automated tool Gorababu? (Like in
Kbabel). In that way absurdities will certainly creep in but it will get us
somewhere soon.

With best wishes,

Manik Chand Patnaik.

------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C4EAE0.B01E34C0
Content-Type: text/html;
	charset="US-ASCII"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

<html xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40">

<head>
<meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=us-ascii">
<meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 11 (filtered medium)">
<style>
<!--
 /* Font Definitions */
 @font-face
	{font-family:Mangal;
	panose-1:0 0 4 0 0 0 0 0 0 0;}
 /* Style Definitions */
 p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
	{margin:0in;
	margin-bottom:.0001pt;
	font-size:12.0pt;
	font-family:"Times New Roman";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
	{color:blue;
	text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
	{color:purple;
	text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
	{mso-style-type:personal-compose;
	font-family:Arial;
	color:windowtext;}
@page Section1
	{size:8.5in 11.0in;
	margin:1.0in 1.25in 1.0in 1.25in;}
div.Section1
	{page:Section1;}
 /* List Definitions */
 @list l0
	{mso-list-id:966810496;
	mso-list-type:hybrid;
	mso-list-template-ids:-116591140 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;}
@list l0:level1
	{mso-level-tab-stop:.5in;
	mso-level-number-position:left;
	text-indent:-.25in;}
@list l1
	{mso-list-id:1909539174;
	mso-list-type:hybrid;
	mso-list-template-ids:-144030744 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715 67698703 67698713 67698715;}
@list l1:level1
	{mso-level-tab-stop:.5in;
	mso-level-number-position:left;
	text-indent:-.25in;}
ol
	{margin-bottom:0in;}
ul
	{margin-bottom:0in;}
-->
</style>

</head>

<body lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple>

<div class=Section1>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Dear friends,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>I saw some discussion on the
font issue lately and thought I should have commented earlier on what I think
about the matter.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;---------- Hariram
Pansari wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

&gt;No any international
linguist had avoided this fact. <o:p></o:p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;With a general
commonsence everyone realise that :<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;swa = 0B38+0B4D+0B71, it
never should be 0B38+0B4D+0B2C,i.e.=sba.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;as in swaadhin, pakwa,
svatva - should never be sbaadhin, pakba, sbatba.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;<o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;mba = 0B2E+0B4D+0B2C, it
never should be 0B2E+0B4D+0B71,i.e.=mwa.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

&gt;as in Aamba, lambaa, -
should never be Aamwa, lamwaa. <o:p></o:p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>My Point-of-view -<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

As per Oriya Grammar, there
is nothing like a &#8216;wa phala&#8217; as there is also no jya phala. (It is
no way linked with 0B1C) The jya phala issue is quite old. Much older grammar
focuses on jya phala whereas ya phala has replaced jya phala virtually in every
BarnaBodh and grammar book taught to children in schools. Talking about wa it
is a letter even it was not there when we studied our first BarnaBodh. In
recent times it is being used with a new composite glyph 0B13&amp;vophala for
maintaining unison with Hindi and other indic scripts.<o:p></o:p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>For core usability issue &#8211;
<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1>
 <li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;text-autospace:none'><font
     size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>If
     somebody not acquainted with oriya wants to read the text he will face pronunciation
     problems.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;text-autospace:none'><font
     size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>If
     tomorrow a software app tries to translate oriya text to hindi or other
     indic scripts then it will face problems which will need hard-coding algorithms
     to differentiate ba phala and wa phala as well as za phala and ya phala.
     Though there would be no issues for translating to Oriya.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1;text-autospace:none'><font
     size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>If
     people have used the wa phala and composed text so compatibility
     maintenance may be necessary; however it is a non issue as Unicode adoption
     is in its nascent stages.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ol>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Expected troubles &#8211;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<ol style='margin-top:0in' start=1 type=1>
 <li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2;text-autospace:none'><font
     size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>By
     inducing jya and wa phala we would have to re-write Oriya grammar which
     would not be appreciated by many. Are we here to correct Oriya which is
     written and spoken by millions for the sake of ease of computerization? Was
     it not the issue like writing kampa (shiver &#8211; En_GB) as kongpa (ka anuswar
     pa) during early computerization and people tried to justify the phonetic
     anomalies for the sake of computerization?<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2;text-autospace:none'><font
     size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Most
     Oriya people will need to be educated about an esoteric &#8216;wa phala&#8217;
     or &#8216;jya phala&#8217; which have never been there in any dictionary
     or &#8220;BarnaBodh&#8221;.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2;text-autospace:none'><font
     size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>We
     should always keep in mind that there is no proper Oriya language
     implementation floating around to base our efforts on. Don&#8217;t bend
     too much on Unicode as Unicode is incomplete, at many places illogical and
     outrageously incorrect. It is not the final word on Oriya glyphs and is
     subject to heavy changes as and when efforts from governmental agencies
     like CDAC pour in.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2;text-autospace:none'><font
     size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>For
     example &#8216;ka halant ba&#8217; what will it yield? &#8216;kwa&#8217;.
     It will never yield &#8216;kba&#8217; and so these two hypothetical conjuncts
     are pure mutually exclusive.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
 <li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2;text-autospace:none'><font
     size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>So
     if &#8216;kba&#8217; is somewhere needed it should be written as &#8216;ka
     halant|nonjoiner|ba&#8217; which is analogous to what we currently have in
     common practice. So here you see a practical need for the joiner as the
     issue raised by Mr. Pansari.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ol>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;---------- Hariram
Pansari wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

&gt;But Unicode OT has vast
scope... other OR-OT drafts appears to include...<o:p></o:p>

&gt;If we wait for their
release, we have to follow them. If we have to include it, then the entire DATA
has to be re-&gt;edited with extra manpower usage.<o:p></o:p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='margin-left:.25in;text-autospace:none'><font size=2
face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<ol style='margin-top:0in' start=6 type=1>
 <li class=MsoNormal style='mso-list:l1 level1 lfo2;text-autospace:none'><font
     size=2 face="Courier New"><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>It
     does not happen like that. Incompleteness of standards will keep them from
     mass adoption for some time from now. If the system that we use remains
     valid (it will of course!) despite of the changes any extra trivial substitution
     issues can be left to script based substitutions. I still get quirks with
     ko with ssho giving rise to xa but however things like these should be
     better digested earlier.<o:p></o:p></span></font></li>
</ol>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

Sorry for commenting late
but I feel that if issues arise let Oriya Grammar books speak. However as Mr.
Pansari commented:<o:p></o:p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>&gt;With a general
commonsence everyone realise that :<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

Commonsense should be
applied but it is difficult that everyone realizes a single point. <o:p></o:p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Font issues are important
but many turnarounds are there as we can pretty well write 0B13&amp;vophala for
wa and it will show up properly even after any amount of re-thinking on U0B71
which I don&#8217;t think may happen anyway.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

As for the translation work,
it is not getting anywhere. We should try something innovative fast! How about
some automated tool Gorababu? (Like in Kbabel). In that way absurdities will
certainly creep in but it will get us somewhere soon.<o:p></o:p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>With best wishes,<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=MsoNormal style='text-autospace:none'><font size=2 face="Courier New"><span
style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Courier New"'>Manik Chand Patnaik.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

</div>

</body>

</html>

------=_NextPart_000_0056_01C4EAE0.B01E34C0--
-------------- next part --------------
_______________________________________________
Oriya-group mailing list
Oriya-group at lists.sarovar.org
http://lists.sarovar.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/oriya-group